In this episode Chris spoke with two of its member-owners, Natasha Natarajan and Maddy Neghabian, about running a business by consent rather than hierarchy, and about a strange new problem: now that “it’s almost become mainstream to be good,” how do you explain why a genuinely democratic model is different? We get into surviving a shrinking market and the arrival of AI on their own terms, why co-ops remain so hard to fund, and the cultural barrier beneath it all — a business world still built around the lone entrepreneur. As they put it, “we take the risk together and we support each other.”

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Chapters: 00:00 Introduction 01:43 Exploring Outlandish’s mission and services 04:18 What sets Outlandish apart? 05:52 Outlandish’s unique selling point 09:13 Challenges in the co-op sector 11:59 Adapting to AI in the workplace 13:46 Maintaining cooperative values 16:41 The two-tiered system of membership 21:29 Funding challenges and the co-op model 25:30 The struggles of co-ops in a competitive landscape 29:18 Fostering collaboration and new business models 31:59 Co-op vs conventional business experience 34:56 Challenging conventional business narratives 35:23 Promoting co-op awareness and education

Outlandish: https://outlandish.com/ · Space4: https://space4.tech/ · Co-operatives UK: https://www.uk.coop/ · CoTech: https://coops.tech/

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Cherry and Siôn explain why the co-op is happy to hire people who are sceptical of co-ops rather than true believers, how it survived the collapse of London’s print industry by refusing to compete on price, and why they care more about who controls a business than who owns it. Along the way: a 16-year average staff retention, what happens when someone has to leave a place with no line managers, the difference between co-operatives and Employee Ownership Trusts, and practical first steps for anyone thinking about starting one.

Chapters: 00:00 Show introduction 01:14 Introducing Calverts 02:27 How Calverts works as a co-op 03:07 Who they hire — and why 06:56 Surviving London’s declining print industry 09:37 How the culture has changed 12:57 Staff retention and tough decisions 17:35 Learning from other co-operatives 20:17 Managing informal hierarchies 23:00 New generations and systemic change 25:54 Barriers to wider co-op adoption 31:02 Hope and agency in the face of systemic change 35:19 Co-ops vs Employee Ownership Trusts 40:57 How to get started 44:13 The business myth Calverts challenges 45:44 Further resources

Resources mentioned: Calverts — https://www.calverts.coop/ workers.coop (Worker Co-op Federation) — https://www.workers.coop/ Stir to Action — https://www.stirtoaction.com/ Centre for Democratic Business / 21st Century Social Clubs — https://www.democraticbusiness.org/ CoTech (tech co-ops network) and forum — https://www.coops.tech/ / https://community.coops.tech/

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This episode offers practical insights into building sustainable, ethical workplaces that defy traditional hierarchies. Whether you’re a business leader, entrepreneur, or activist, understanding Suma’s approach can spark ideas about reimagining work for fairness, resilience, and community benefit.

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BlueSky: https://bsky.app/profile/changingnarrative.bsky.social

RESOURCES & LINKS

Suma: https://www.suma.coop

workers.coop: https://www.workers.coop

PunchCard Podcast: https://www.youtube.com/@workerscoop⁩

The Hive Cafe Huddersfield: https://hivecommunity.org.uk

Guest: Beau Bulman

Host/Creator: Chris King

MAIN INSIGHTS INCLUDE

Suma’s origins in the late 1970s countercultural movement, emphasising community and vegetarian ideals.

The core principle of equal pay regardless of role, tenure, or hierarchy

How a decentralised, democratic decision-making process works at scale with 250+ members

Recruitment practices focused on shared values and work ethic, not just skills

The internal and external barriers to adopting models like Suma’s in traditional businesses

The impact of culture and collective responsibility on organisational resilience

Strategies for integrating democratic principles into conventional business structures

The importance of transparency, feedback, and collective accountability

Challenges related to growth, decision-making speed, and geographic autonomy

How worker cooperatives like Suma can influence wider societal narratives about work and ownership

TIMESTAMPS

00:00 Introduction

03:07 What is Suma

09:05 The source of Suma’s resilience

10:59 How to recruit for the right people

14:08 Are there opportunities for the older and less able?

16:20 Adaptability and Resilience in Operations

17:23 Attracting Specialists in a Cooperative Model

21:01 The Impact of Equal Pay on Workplace Culture

23:09 Feedback Mechanisms and Performance Reviews

25:44 Informal Hierarchies and Team Accountability

28:46 Challenges of Direct Democracy in Business

31:30 Balancing Autonomy and Decision-Making

33:34 Implementing Sociocracy and Team Autonomy

35:38 Empowering Workers and Redefining Roles

39:12 Barriers to Egalitarian Workplaces

43:37 Challenging Traditional Business Narratives

44:36 Other co-op-related organisations to explore